It is a common term in the secular world, especially on TV shows and movies, when a couple decides "we are ready, let's make a baby." They tell people, "we are trying to have a baby." And then when it doesn't happen right away they get worried, they try other ways. Wouldn't it be simpler to never have prevented kids in the first place?
Before I learned about birth control, this concept of making babies didn't make sense to me. You got married, you had babies. End of story. Where was there a choice about it, a decision? I figured it was all up to G-d. Things are already decided in heaven before a baby is even conceived. Where then, is our choice in the matter?
But like all things on this earth, we always have a choice. And people choose whether or not to have a baby, and when. And then whether or not to have more children.
To me it is not a choice. I plan on having as many kids as G-d throws at me G-d willing, and then begging G-d for all the help I can get.
I don't believe in birth control, because I think every potential child should have a chance at being born.
Think about all those cute little babies running around.
Your comment system ate my comment - which was long. Can't repeat the labor - I feel there are a number of valid reasons for waiting - or for using contraceptives at some point in the marriage - 1. Not everyone wants kids, 2. Some people can only afford a smaller number 3. Some people want to experience each other before they have kids. Taking religion out of it, these are all valid reasons.
ReplyDeleteOh, they are soooooo cute. That's why I have 9 (so far). But yes, a lot of work. There's a time and a place for contraception (medical issues necessitating waiting come to mind) but all things being equal, I say go for it.
ReplyDeleteES, I read her post to mean she herself wasn't going to use birth control, not that she was necessarily judging those who do use it, although I coils be reading it wrong. I'm also on record as "not believing in birth control" but I mean for myself. I certainly don't judge others for wanting/needing/using it.
Coils = could. Sorry!
ReplyDeleteMiriam, you are right, although I do have an opinion about other people who use. Obviously, it is not my place to judge, and each situation deserves individual scrutiny, but I think that if you are healthy and can have kids, then you should, and G-d will take care of the rest.
ReplyDeleteES- I can't take religion out of it. It is what and who I am.
If I could have 10 babies like the one in the picture above, I would be in heaven.
And ya, I just had to retype this cuz it lost my comment too. Dunno what's up with blogger today.
I think i'm somewhat against the concept of making as many babies as possile tyhen begging Hashem for all the help - because that translates as becoming another person that gemachs and tzedaka funds have to feed and house. Funds are not unlimiyed - and as important as havng children is, even within the Torah view one must be prudent - You are mekayim the mitzvah with a minimum of 2 children - the idea that every jew needs to crank out 10 babies is not a halacha - it is a perosnal choice - which is totally ok. My sister has 6 kids. BUT - I am against the idea that one should irresponsibly have those kids then expect others to help make sure they aren't growing up destitute.
ReplyDeleteI agree with that. Personally I know I have the strength. Yes, some people are not fit to raise kids. What should they do? I don't know. I don't claim to have all the answers.
ReplyDeleteMy grandparents think that you should only have as many kids as you can support. My parents have 8 kids. If they stopped at 2, I wouldn't be here. What do you say to that? That they shouldn't have had so many kids? I think I turned out ok.
I know people who come from big families and feel that they were neglected as children, and therefore want to have very few kids so they can give each one individual attention. That may or may not resolve whatever you went through as a child.
Sof kol sof, I don't know. It's not a simple issue, I don't claim to have experience in this area, come back to me in 20 years from now when I have a bunch of kids. I hope that my opinion will still be the same.
I still think that G-d gives you the tools to handle whatever burden He gives you. If He gives you a lot of kids it's because He knows you can handle it. Maybe some people just need to find the strength.
a) Apologies for my horrendous spelling in the last comment -i was in a rush
ReplyDeleteb) This has nothing to do with personal strength. I have no idea what your parent's finances are like - maybe they could afford 8 kids. Nor is it about giving each kid attention (though there certainly IS something to a child who feels he has the undivided love of his parents [or her]) - my comment went straight to mathematics - and finances. No offense - but I don't want my tzeddakah money going to pay for somene's tuition assitance because they decided God was going to help them. Last i checked, God helped those who helped themselves. Everything is about prudence and restraint - the Torah does NOt want aniyim running around. People need to show restraint - if you can afford 20 kids, then HAVE 20 kids if that's waht you want - but the idea that I should have as many as i can, regardless of whether I can afford the or not - is not only a wrong PERSONAL choice - but it unfairly burdens all Jews.
I doubt anyone has kids thinking, "I'll just mooch off of all those other Jews who give money to tzedaka."
ReplyDeleteAnd most people don't plan on having a big family, it just happens.
If you don't want to give 'them' your tzedaka, that's fine. But don't say that 'they' shouldn't have a lot of kids just because they can't afford them.
How would you feel if you couldn't have any kids?
And most people don't plan on having a big family, it just happens.
ReplyDeleteABSOLUTELY untrue - in frum communities such families are encouraged - and while they may not be outright saying I'll mooch, indeed that is exactly how they plan to pay for these children.
And I have EVERY right to say that people who cannot afford largwe families ahouldn't have them.
And your last statement is completely irrelevant to the conversation - except as a way to try and make me feel guilty. Which i don;t.
You really like to argue, don't you?
ReplyDeleteBelieve what you want to believe, do what you want to do, and I will do the same.
AKA - We shall agree to disagree.
ReplyDeleteMethinks we will be doing alot of that here....
Altie- I give you a brocha that you should have ten babies, each as cute as the next, and 500 times cuter than that kid in the picture! I also give you a brocha that you find a patient and understanding husband, who is a terrific father, and helps you with all those kids, and that you find him soon.
ReplyDeletePS I agree, but then again I see it as a religious issue as well.
May you have many babies, and raise them as well-adjusted, happy, proud Yidden and chassidim.
ReplyDeleteDaniel what exactly do you agree with? What is a religious issue? where, pray tell, in the Torah does is state that Jews are encouraged to have more kids than they can pay for?
ReplyDelete:) Thank you Daniel, and chenyok. Amen.
ReplyDeleteI am one of 13 children, and I don't feel deprived. BH my parents are amazing parents are were managed to raise us in a healthy environment, and thank G-d we never had to rely on tzedaka.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, not everyone has the emotional capacity to raise countless kids. Think of the dysfunctional families, or the emotionally traumatized children-should their parents have had that many kids?
Altie-Birth Control is a very personal choice, and is not black and white. Many factors on involved. IYH you won't have any need for birth control, but please don't judge other people that do.
C- I understand what you are saying. I am not judging. I am stating my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThe Torah simply commands us to be fruitful and multiply. The Torah also commands a man, to learn a trade and take a job so he can support his family. However, we do know that a person's livelihood and the amount of children he has are determined by Hashem. Therefore, unless a person is so frought with worries about what another kid would do to his finances, birthcontrol should not be used.
ReplyDeleteThere is no guarantee that having less kids will mean you can afford a better life for them, Hashem determines money matters and I know of many families who chose to only have one and still unfortunately struggle immensely with financial issues.
ReplyDeleteMe - I am one of 6, soon to be 7 iy"h and we are on shlichus so we have very little money, I feel that children are a brocha any way that you can support them and in my case, 'nothing' stretches the same way with 7+ as it might with just me (I'm the oldest).
Large families are a beautiful thing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but after it says 'pru u'rvu' doesn't it say 'umaleh es ha'aretz'?
thanks mushkie, i love when you back me up. and you always do it in a way with such confidence in the fact that you are right, that no one can argue with it.
ReplyDelete