Here are my frustrations:
I hate judgmental people; I've just discovered that I'm judgemental. I.e, do I hate myself?
Scenario: a guy with dark skin, looks kind of Arabic, Persian, or possibly Israeli. Clean shaven, no kippa. He starts talking to me, asking me questions. Turns out he used to be religious. Now he's just, I'm not sure how you would catagorize it. May I interrupt myself to say that I hate labels as well.
He grew up religious. His family is traditional. He went to a religious school. He has ultra orthodox relatives. I never quite understood how he came to leave all that. But he tells me, I'm a good Jew. I give tzedaka, I don't steal, or kill, (ya, most of us too), I keep kosher, and shabbat, mostly, but I'm so damn bored so I watch tv, and use the computer, but that's it.
He asks me a lot of questions, questionsa that I can't answer, and that bothers me a lot. He asks me what is the difference between Chabad and other Jews. What is tanya. Why do the satmar ladies shave their heads. (I have to say to that I had no answer, not even remotely.) Why do women wear shaitels, if they are supposed to cover their hair, but shaitels look beautiful and are attractive.
I squirmed. I made up some answers. I got the feeling that he was more trying to challenge me then actually seek answers. But still, he was asking me, and I didn't know how to answer. Which made me wonder: did they actually teach this in school, how to know what to answer people when asked these kinds of questions, and I just blocked it out as I always did? Or did I waste 19 years of my life, 15 years of wich I spent in school, and learned absolutely nothing. Am I a shame to all my teachers? Ouch that hurt a bit.
If he is a good Jew, because he does all that he does, then how am I different then him? I won't ask better, I know that here is no better in Judaism. But what makes me different then him? Because I actually do keep shabbos? Or kashrus?
It's like a math equation that went wrong somewhere along the way, and now I just can't solve it. Frustrations are just so frustrating.
Why do you have to be better than him?
ReplyDeleteWho says that level of frumkeit defines how "good" you are. Yes, it defines how religious you are-but I think it stops there.
Religion is a relationship-between me and G-d. Or you and G-d. But it doesn't mean that one who is more connected is a better person that one who doesn't invest as much in said relationship.
Yeah, it's a problem.
ReplyDeleteBut it doesn't mean that one who is more connected is a better person that one who doesn't invest as much in said relationship.
ReplyDeleteOne who is more connected to what? G-d = good. More connected to G-d = better person. But really connected vs. "frum socially".
CA: 1. Being close to G-d does not make you good my association. I do not have to bring examples to prove my point.
ReplyDelete2. If what you say is true; bear in mind that every Jew is connected to G-d from the source. Frumkeit does not guarantee a level of goodness above all others.
My personal opinion on the sheitel issue is that they are a sham. Which is why certain sects of Chassidus do not wear sheitels, or at least sheitels on their own. Not complaining though, I'm happy with the status quo.
ReplyDelete1. Why not? Have you considered that perhaps in your examples people are not really connected?
ReplyDelete2. And b'etzem all Jews are good. That's why we love them all. The next step is to be good b'gilui; i.e., to be connected to G-d b'gilui.
What I am trying to say is that there is no concept of "good" outside of G-d. So, there is only one way to be good -- to be G-dly.
N, my rabbi says: "A man will never stroke his wife's sheitel."
ReplyDeletea woman's hair is considered dvar ervah, which must be covered.
ReplyDeleteIt is not just because hair is pretty. A woman with disgusting hair still must cover it.
Because a sheitel covers a woman's hair more than a snood, or fall, or tichel, or whatever else you womenfolk have, the Rebbe pushed for frum women to switch to wearing sheitels, when most chassidish communities feel a tichel for example is more tznius.
Of course, any article of clothing a woman wears is only tznius if it does not attract attention. A gorgeous sheitel therefore is not tznius, although it does cover the hair. I'm not a rav, but probably it is better for the hair to be covered fully by a glitzy sheitel.
Why am I the one who has to explain this?
I was once told (I forget by who, probably a Rabbi), that there is no such thing as a bad Jew. We are all good, in our own ways.
ReplyDeleteHere are my thoughts on your post:
ReplyDelete1: I personally don't care how my future wife choses to cover her hair, tichel, snood, sheitle, etc. As long as it is indeed cover, and furthermore, as long as she isn't in Niddah to me, if it is just the two of us at home alone, she could wear a tshirt for all I care, scandalous I know!
2: There are no bad Jews or good Jews, I am not better than my brother because I keep Shabbos and Kashrus, there are just Jews that try and do better and Jews that don't try and do better. I know I can certainly be doing better.
3: My Rabbi was giving us Kiruv lessons the other day, and one of the most important things he said was to never lie. If you don't know an answer just say you don't know. Now, this may not have worked in your case, where he might have been challenging your beliefs, or trying to, but otherwise it should work.
That is just my two or three cents though.
Subscribing.
ReplyDeleteyossi, you're right. i dont know why.
thats funny I was just thinking about this
ReplyDeletewhat if someone asks me all these religion questions i wont know what to answer...
and I love the last two lines, very descriptive, apt:
'like a math problem gone wrong
frustrations are so frustrating'
:) thank you chaya, thats the most encouraging comment yet. glad u like it.
ReplyDeleteCA: >What I am trying to say is that there is no concept of "good" outside of G-d
ReplyDeleteHow can you say that? How about the 99% of humanity that don't have the same concept of God that you have? The vast amount of humanity that don't believe in God?
You sound like those missionaries who claim "Jesus is love." Hijack words like "love" and "good" and attach it to your getchke and hope against hope that no one sees through it.
How can I say that? I can open my mouth and say that. There is 99.99% of our galaxy which is without life. So what?
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to prove Aristotle right?
ReplyDeleteThat's a standard answer of a moron. I guess you're proving not only Aristotle but Rasag right too.
ReplyDelete>That's a standard answer of a moron
ReplyDeleteYou sound like an authority on the subject.
Indeed. I've met enough morons in my life, both on the derech and off. Alright, this is no fun anymore.
ReplyDeleteAltie--- maybe ill give ua Da Mah Shetoshiv class.
ReplyDeleteAnd yossi.. You didnt have to say it... i was just about to.
and Altie--- wat makes you different is that you have kabbolos Ol.
i didnt know that actually. thanks for pointing it out.
ReplyDeleteno prob. netime :)
ReplyDeletewow so many things going on over here.
ReplyDeletethe shaitel. the reason the rebbe was pro shaitel is because he understood human nature. he says clearly in a letter that if a woman has a tichel, scarf or any similar item. if she finds hereself in an uncomfortable situation she will feel the urge to slip it into her pocket and chill with her hair out. major problem halachicaly for her and the man who sees it. i doubt any woman is gonna leave her home with a shaitel and slip it into her purse.
now the really flashy sheitlach are not tznius at all. i was reading a short version of rabbi hellers speach on tznius and he explains that you have to develop a feeling for tznius. he say if i had to write every little thing thats not tznius. it would require its own shulchan aruch and it would hav to be updated every few months.
so a certain rav was fond of saying dont forget the 5th chelek of shulchan aruch, common sense.
otd.
racisim involves discrimination based on race. so stop attaching words to fit your needs that create bad conotations.
this is discrimination based on a belief system. if someone doesnt agree with mine he is evil. that is not racism its being a human being.
as i have told you before go back to you four gedaylim AKA the four horsemen.
i hope you realize one day you have traded one system for another and they both have their flaws so get over it because you are no different than any chareidi extremist.
CA: don't be so cryptic to those who don't know your style!
ReplyDeleteOTD: CA is a fundi and probably also a racist. You aren't insulting him.
Regarding the ending of the post:
The difference between your quandary and a math problem is that any math problem (at least the ones you'll encounter on tests) has a right answer. But life isn't always so simple...
correction: its never simple.
ReplyDeleteWhen you're solving a math problem, it's as simple as solving a math problem.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that I may be a racist (which I am not) doesn't change the fact that it's rather stupid to draw the drawn conclusions. OTD could also say that I hate psychologists; it would have no relevance to what I was saying. It's a standard Jewish idea that sinners are called dead even during their life.
ReplyDeleteyour points may be valid, but you're not explaining them.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't believing the first chapter of tanya make you a racist?
ya, way to say that some people aint smart. not everyone finds math problems simple.
ReplyDeleteDoes believing that Black people are more likely to get certain types of cancer make me racist?
ReplyDeleteYes, I suppose there is a way to look at it that way...
There is a difference between explanation and justification.
ReplyDelete>It's a standard Jewish idea that sinners are called dead...
ReplyDeleteIt's also a "standard Jewish idea" that child slavery is okay. Oh, and mass genocide and pedophilia. Surely you're big advocates of that too? I mean, you wouldn't want to be wishy-washy like these modern-day liberals and have your morality CHANGE....
eh whatever. This is just a fight about semantics. I know what you Tanya (and chassidus in general) says about goyim. You know what it says. We know that it's far from politically correct. Who cares if the term racist applies?
ReplyDeleteAltie: I never said it's simple. I said it's as simple as a math problem.
ReplyDeleteOTD: Said Isaiah, "The word of our God stands forever."
ReplyDeleteThe fact that sinners are dead is a fact of life.
ReplyDeleteSlavery, mass genocide and pedophilia are things that I can support or not; i.e., it is up to me whether they exist.
In any event, I don't see the relevance. I don't judge validity of Torah based on how good or bad it sounds to me and whether it offends my sensibilities. I judge its validity based on evidence of its truth.
Surely it is a very simple idea that G-d is the only truth and goodness in the Universe. Whether you believe in Him or not; the idea is not difficult to comprehend. Am I wrong?
e, fine. But racism can be theoretical and practical. I do not in practice discriminate between Jews and, lehavdil, goyim. [Actually, your cousin told me of this joke.]
ReplyDeleteCA: Ah truth, you fundis are obsessed with truth.
ReplyDeleteDown to its innermost depths.
ReplyDelete(in quotation marks)
ReplyDeleteconsidering how differently you view the respective essences of jews and non-jews, is it possible for you to treat them 100% the same?
ReplyDeleteAnd what's the joke?
Well, I don't count non-Jews in a minyan. Actually, because Conservative Jews count women in a minyan, I recently retaliated by not counting them either. But in all other aspects I treat Jews and non-Jews the same. I must confess, I don't have so many chances to discriminate. For instance, I don't own a business.
ReplyDeleteActually, it's not a joke. One time some rabbi was giving a lecture on radio and after it, answering questions, said something like: "There is no difference between Jews and, lehavdil, non-Jews."
I think i heard that line about Yisroel Shemtov, but I may be making stuff up.
ReplyDeleteI am looking for a lecture on Russian about infinity from Mathematics point of view which the author somehow connects to Judaism. He talks about numbers between 0 and 1, etc. So far I found its bad-quality version.
ReplyDelete1. Yes.
ReplyDelete2. No.
But you must take into account my background.
Of all living things I really have no empathy only to cockroaches. I even have empathy to spiders, even though I still kill them when they get too personal.
Uhh. My Russian isn't that good. And there's no google translate for videos. And most importantly, how's that relevant to this discussion?
ReplyDeleteIf you have two infinite streets: one has infinite number of houses with both odd and even number and the other with only odd numbers, which street is longer (each house takes the same amount of space)?
ReplyDeleteThe chiddush of Kantor was that he showed that there are some infinities which are bigger than others. I think this idea is quite applicable to Judaism.
ReplyDeleteDon't pull a fast one on me! Some infinites may be bigger than others, but both streets have exactly equal length!
ReplyDeleteA British girl told me that saying "bullocks" is not Chassidish. I wonder if it's worse when a girl says it.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say showing no empathy. I said showing equal amount of empathy. Look: your brother has a problem, and you show him the same amount of empathy as a complete stranger. You think that's a good thing?
How come the first street isn't twice longer than the second one?
ReplyDeletenow if one street had adresses with all real numbers, it would be longer than the streets you described. But of course on such a street if the houses had non-zero width, you wouldn't be able to get to your neighbor's house. Even if the addresses had all rational numbers you wouldn't be able to get to your neighbor's house, although the street would be just as long as the street with only even integers. Isn't this neat?
ReplyDeletethe short answer to your question is that infinite sets don't behave like finite sets. so you can check your intuition at the door.
ReplyDeleteca- its the same as saying bullshit. not that great, but ppl say it. also, why should it be worse if a girl says it?
ReplyDeleteand your scenario: that might be true if i liked my brother enough to show him empathy at all. otherwise he should be happy i show him even the same amount as i would a stranger.
wtvr. this is fun to watch but im not getting involved. carry on.
Well, there is some trick to prove it, but I forgot. It's actually in that lecture.
ReplyDeleteI beg your pardon! You can prove that they have equal length. There's no proof that they have unequal length (unless I'm mistaken).
ReplyDeleteAh, that's Kantor's theorem. That every infinite... set? (множество) is greater than or equal to aleph-zero (the smallest infinite set, which is the infinite set of all natural numbers).
ReplyDeleteI think that aleph null is the set of all reals, which is greater than the set of all naturals.
ReplyDeleteI was wrong.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number
1 → 2
ReplyDelete2 → 4
3 → 6
n → 2n
So, evidently, both sets are equal. So, a set consisting of all natural numbers is equal in its length to a set consisting of only half of natural numbers (the even ones).
Either i'm tired and not reading these comments carefully, or you just switched positions.
ReplyDeleteI wasn’t saying that one street is longer; I was asking.
ReplyDeleteBut what I said before is also true. The set of numbers between 0 and 1 is greater than the set of all natural numbers (aleph null).
Ok. I wasn't paying attention. I thought you were trying to prove that they're inequal. I think I shall hop off to bed.
ReplyDeleteСпокойной ночи.
ReplyDeleteright, because you're counting all the reals between 0 and 1, and any segment of the real number line has uncountably infinite numbers. Now I better really go to bed.
ReplyDeletebut what does all this infinity junk have to do with religion?
ReplyDeleteEven if one infinity can still be zero in comparison to another infinity, why is it so hard to imagine that sinners are dead but can still look like good people?
ReplyDeleteOr something like that. Mostly I just felt like talking about Math. Sometimes that happens. It’s also late in my time zone.
theyre dead. thats a fact. theyre good people. another fact. i see no contradiction.
ReplyDeleteThey are good relative to you. They are bad relative to G-d’s version of what good is.
ReplyDeleteBut most importantly, at the beginning, I objected to the idea that becoming frummer does not make you a better person. It does. If you do more mitvzos and learn more Torah, you bring more good into this world. And it’s greater good than helping Darfur.
if they are good in relation to me then u just said im a bad person.
ReplyDeletealso, its like grades? b, b-, a, a+, really? so if you are modern orthodox you score one thing, and if you are chabad you score something else, and if you are fryak then you are lower then that? a system. and how do you know this?
There is a point where even my tendency to ignore political correctness runs out.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know anything? You figure out what the right thing is.
It’s never possible to compare one Jew to another. Because there are so many variables. But yes, I believe that if a Jew is frum he is in a better place than if he is not. And he brings more good into the world. Etc.
"They won’t ask me ’Why weren’t you Avrohom?’ They will ask me: ’Why weren’t you Altie?’"
I mean, "Zushe". :)
ReplyDeleteThis conversation reminds me of a place in h2g2, where Zaphod Beeblebrox is supposed to be executed. The way people are given death penalty on this particular planet is that they are made aware of the whole Universe, all at once. And it literally nullifies them. After going through this procedure, Zaphod feels better than ever.
ReplyDeletedont u think they will ask you 'why werent you crawling axe'? or whatever your name is.
ReplyDeleteits just so frustrating sometimes.
theyre dead. thats a fact. theyre good people. another fact. i see no contradiction.
ReplyDeleteActually, that is indeed contradictory.
Look, if one's life is all about klipah, than what's good about it? And indeed, "even the kindness of nations is sin". Etc.
And yes, you should know why you're doing what you're doing and why you are where you are and how to answer a heretic. Ignorance is the easiest malady to cure.
Good night.
I don't think they will ask me "Why weren't you Crawling Axe?"
ReplyDeleteits the inability to side with anyone, wanting to be neutral so everyone will like you. you know the story with the rabbi who said that everyone was right? un vaiter.
ReplyDeleteand ya, that would be kind of funny. but i dont know youre name. fill in the blanks.
I still do not agree. Religious does not equal G-dly. Maybe ideally it should, but it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteThere are good people out there who are not religious. That is a fact.
There is more to life than being a good person, surely, but that doesn't take away from those that are good and not religious.
C, you have to define what good is, and what the real good is. When somebody murders someone, you know that he has caused evil. It's very tangible. When somebody breaks Shabbos, you don't really see all the evil that he has caused. So, you say: he is a good person (if he does a lot of tangible good).
ReplyDeleteThe whole division into "good" and "bad" is misleading. If someone abuses his children and gives millions away for charity (and mamosh cares about the people whom the millions go to), is he good or bad? What's the point of giving the sub-total grade? One thing he does is good; the other is evil.
If a person who is not... reli... I mean, observant, became one, he would do more good.
Derech Eretz proceeds Torah. If you have no derech eretz towards other human beings, Jewish or non, if you have no sympathy or empathy for them, if you don't strive to treat them the same, then Torah has taught you nothing.
ReplyDeleteThe Torah wants to teach us how to not be jerks, do you really think you are fulfilling what Hashem wants from you, if you put on Teffilin one moment, and then don't smile at the person behind the lunch counter?
ReplyDeleteRegarding tefillin, you have fulfilled the mitzva. Regarding the person — no.
ReplyDeleteTeaching us how not to be jerks is not the essential purpose of Torah.
Of course, you can say that if you're a jerk to people, it's indicative that you haven't grasped the depth of Torah (if you had, you'd be a nice person), and as a result, your mitzva of tefillin is probably lacking too. But I disagree with what that "depth" is.
ReplyDeleteAxe you are right, the purpose of Torah, is to teach us how to serve Hashem, and sometimes we serve Hashem with Tefillin and other times we serve him with a simple smile and a thank you.
ReplyDeleteIf you do more mitvzos and learn more Torah, you bring more good into this world. And it’s greater good than helping Darfur.
ReplyDeleteCA: you are my favorite fundi. You tell it like it is, regardless of how ugly it sounds.
why such reverence??
ReplyDeletefight it!!
"i think the rule is"
"i might be mistaken"
a rule???!!!
by what inspiration and which confidence?
ahh. the kabbalos ol for math
Thank you all for giving me several hearty laughs. Can we all say that people are inherently good yet do bad things? No, don't respond, I don't want to spark up another nonsensical discussion. Adank. (Or spasiba for some clever ppl here).
ReplyDelete