A) So did shmais, and they are the 'clean' site. http://www.shmais.com/chabad-news/latest/item/oprah-winfrey-visits-ny-chasidic-families-in-new-series
B) It pertains to Lubavitchers, and col brings us Lubavitch News:
"Oprah's Next Chapter" which premieres in January 2012 will be giving a glimpse into the daily life of chassidic Jews and how their intense spiritual devotion informs and strengthens their dealings with the outside world.
C) It's good publicity, and I think she's a great person.
I can understand why you would think Col should not be posting certain stuff but I see nothing in this article as negative or un-newsworthy.
First off, it is not a lubavitch news site. None of the sites are. They express their own views and happen to focus on or be members of the lubavitch community. It is rather sad that people think or feel that they are official lubavitch organs, as the views they express and stories they publish often times are not fitting for the standard that an official lubavitch organ would and must hold itself to. This story is an example of that. Do you think a lubvitch news paper that would have been handed in to the Rebbe for review before being published would have included the story? I dont.
I was attempting to rent a car, and just because I said I'm a member of 'Chabad' (which they amusingly pronounced 'Chi-bad') I get special privileges. What if anyone else said they were Chabad just to get the same deal? What makes anyone Chabad? Cuz they grew up that way?
I don't think you are talking about just a website here. I think by pointing out what you think they did wrong you are avoiding the real deeper problem.
I can agree with what you are saying, that perhaps the Rebbe would not approve. But on that topic:
A) who are you to say what the Rebbe would and would not approve and
B: do YOU live your life exactly as a chossid should? Do you behave the way a 'Lubavitch organ' should behave ALWAYS in EVERYTHING you do? Cuz I really doubt that.
Who are you to judge? I'm sure the Rebbe does not need you advocating for him.
What makes COL lubavitch? That the editor is lubavitch? So are the opnions i express on my blog the official stance of lubavitch as well? I am also a lubavitcher?
organ noun ( NEWSPAPER ) /ˈɔː.gən//ˈɔːr-/
Definition the organ of sth formal a newspaper or broadcasting station produced by a particular organization and giving only the opinions of that organization The newspaper Pravda was the official organ of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/organ_3)
Do you really think that someone is chabad because thats what they call themselves? Naive. Im not even going to bother responding. Ha. The Rebbe outlines quite clearly what a lubavitcher is. And please dont give me some cliche answer that if someone met the rebbe they are lubavitch or the rebbe loved all jews. The rebbe met non jews and apikorsim as well. I do not see anyone classifying them as lubavitch.
This is actually a topic that has to be brought up and cant constantly be swept under the carpet saying "the rebbe doesnt need you to defend him". Unfortunately, lubavitch today has taken on a funny meaning. People who lead their lives in a fashion that the rebbe was completely opposed to consider themselves lubavitch. Many of the so called "chabad lite" barely look frum, but they consider themselves lubavitch. What gives them that status? That their parents were lubavitchers? There is the famous story of the Frierdiker Rebbe when the KGB agent Lulav offered to carry his bags saying the his grandfather had been a chassid and carried the Rebbe Maharash's bags, so he would do the same. The Rebbe answered him the his grandfather had been a chassid, he wasnt.
Being chassid isnt hereditary. It is not inherited. As the famous hayom yom says the rabbiem wanted chassidim who worked to become chassidim, not chassidim who just were. In other words the person needs his own merit. Yes, I am cutting out half of lubavitch, i am maybe even cutting out myself, but that does not change the fact. Lubavitch is an exclusive club where one has to pay an extremely high membership fee. It is not name which one can just use cheaply.
"the rebbe doesnt need you to defend him". Please quote in context. That argument is beyond idiotic. A chassid does not care to see his rebbe dragged into the shmutz. The Rebbes honor means more to a chossid than his own. How would you react to someone trashing your father? I would go into examples, but think to the extreme. You would not respond lightly, and spare nothing at both discrediting the person who made made the statement or committed the act, responding to the actual charges that were laid.
"And according to my mother, the Rebbe hand-picked his Chassidim". Snicker. Great source. It goes a bit further back than your mother. On the actual issue, read what you said, "the Rebbe hand picked his CHASSIDIM"!!! Again, CHASSIDIM!! Not the that guy who.... (ok, im not going to start cursing out specific profiles, but im sure you have a basic idea...). Is he a chassid? No!! What makes him a chassid! The rebbe hand picked his chassidim. Not the guy who just calls himself one but does nothing to be one. is the guy who wears military fatigues a special forces soldier? Of course not! The absurdity of that idea os mind boggling.
I can simply say what the rebbe says being a chassid means. There is an amazing book called "Der Rebbes Kinder" (not to be confused with Der Rebbe Redt Tzo Kinder) which outlines exactly what being a chassid would mean. I suggest you - and everyone else for that matter - read that book.
And for that matter, when you become a chossid, get back to me too.
So you are defending in the Rebbe's name and saying that people who call themselves chassidim are in fact not.
Now 2 things: firstly, not many people call themselves 'chassidim'. You mostly here lubavitch. Which we know is like a 'club'. There's a difference between being a chossid and being a lubavitcher.
2nd, what if you had a step-brother and you told the kid your father wasn't his father. What if your father considered him to be a son? Who are you to define another person's relationship with the Rebbe?
Jews are Jews. Correct? Every Jew has a pintele yid and no matter how far he strays he will always be a Jew and Hashem will always be his father.
So why is it any different with the Rebbe? We call our Rebbe tatte too. Who are you to say who are the Rebbe's kinder and who aren't?
Same way a parent says, don't tattle on another child because it is not your place to discipline. You may think you are defending the Rebbe's 'honor' when in fact you may be tearing a child away from his father with your insensitive words.
The only person whom you can judge as a chossid or not a chossid is yourself. And according to your argument, who are you to call yourself a chossid?
In fact, at the rate you are going, I'll bet there is not one true chossid out there today.
You can try spinning it any way you want, throwing nice feel good lines about step children etc. At the end of the day the fact remains. There is no use denying it. Many Lubavitchers today are by no means lubavicth. They are friends of lubavicth, lubavitch affiliated (and trying to play the "you mostly here (sic) lubavitch" card is just childish. Really? Is that the excuse for it?) but not lubavitch.
I think it is quite sad that you feel there arent any lubavitchers left today. It says something about who you have had as role models, teachers and friends. There are hundreds if not thousands of true chassidim. Real lubavitchers. Both the senior ones, as well as the young crop of chassidim which we have in our yeshivas. Lubavitch lives on.
You questions are skirting the issue. The fact still stands regardless of my qualifications. It doesnt take a doctor to realize that a guy is bleeding. i dont have to be some eltere chassid to realize and say there is an issue. That is the fact. Period. You can try attributing niceties to it, use metaphors and parables, but at the end of the day the fact still satnds. They are not lubavitch and there is nothing lubavitch about them!
I like niceties. I'm a nice person. Not cold and calculating like you.
And who exactly are 'they'? You wanna to start pointing fingers? Naming names? When 'they' show up in 770 or at the kinnus will you bar them access because you have judged and found lacking?
It's interesting how you think you are in a position to judge.
They also help one just completely skirt an issue trying to bury it and make it all feel good.
I think it is fairly obvious what group of people i am referring to. The main idea is to get them to recognize themselves that they arent lubavitch, outward appearances can be deceiving.
I already addressed whether or not I am in a place to judge. Regarding me being a chossid; I consider myself someone who tries hard to follow the Rebbes directives. I am a chossid in progress. I affiliate myself with chabad, but no, i do not feel that i can call myself a true chassid based on where I know I am in my life.
I think you are wrong about that. There's nothing wrong with 'feeling good'. And just because one does not choose to argue an issue to death does not mean that they don't acknowledge and realize that there may be a problem.
" i do not feel that i can call myself a true chassid based on where I know I am in my life."
That is good, because I wouldn't want the Rebbe to be embarrassed of you.
For a person who likes to point out a lot of 'issues', you sure are short on solutions.
Trying to tell yourself there is no issue by masking it with parables accomplishes nothing. You may bury it and feel good for the moment but the issue remains. It has nothing to do with arguing to the death, throughout this conversation you have tried skirting the issue, saying it doesnt exist by using niceties. It was an attempt at burying your head in the sand, not avoiding an argument (especially as they were used in a way which aimed at prolonging this exchange of ideas).
There is a very simple solution, shape up or ship out. They can keep a picture of the rebbe on your wall, doesnt bother me. Daven nushach ari, also fine. Things i have an issue with is the sending of their children to schools which attempt to educate chassidim. A child which has a TV in their home because their parent is a member of the Lite community which then comes to school and educates other children on the nonsense that they watched should be thrown out of school. There should be schools for similarly corrupted children. Here in LA the Cheder Of Los Angeles (the chasseedishe school)makes parents sign a letter that if the school finds out that they have a TV in their house the child will be kicked out of school. Toras emes, the yeshivishe school has a rule no TV on school nights and the schools official stance is tv's are wrong. Only the lubavitch school doesnt have such a policy. WHY NOT? Our Rebbe spared no words expressing his view on television! We should have the same policy! People seem to feel that because lubavitch is all loving and accepting we should lower our standards. It doesnt work that way! the rebbe made it quite clear about what he thought about that opinion.
In summation, members of the Chabad Lite community can feel free to call themselves Chabad Lite - by tat very name, as well as to conduct themselves by whichever chabad practices they deem fit. However, anything which influences the LUBAVITCH community at large should not be allowed and that should be enforced. Yes, kicking people out of shul and out of school That IS the lubavitch way! Lubavitchers are Kanoim! Anyone who tells you otherwise is mistaken. Keeping our community al taharas hakodesh is something which has to be fought for, even at the risk of alienating people. When the rebbe felt that there was an issue that had to be addressed he addressed it without regard for what the reaction might be. The lubavitch communities worldwide mst do the same....
I am not burying my head in the sand and I have no problem admitting that there is an issue, but it is not MY issue and therefore I see no need to get all worked up about it like you are.
"Things i have an issue with is the sending of their children to schools which attempt to educate chassidim." WHY are you so bothered by what other people do?
"A child which has a TV in their home because their parent is a member of the Lite community which then comes to school and educates other children on the nonsense that they watched should be thrown out of school."- THROWN OUT OF SCHOOL? Really? A child should be punished for his parents mistakes? I don't think so.
"There should be schools for similarly corrupted children."- Corrupted? So now a child who watches TV is corrupted? What about a boy who talks to girls? That makes him practically a kofer.
"People seem to feel that because lubavitch is all loving and accepting we should lower our standards. It doesnt work that way! the rebbe made it quite clear about what he thought about that opinion."- Which people are you referring to? I don't think anyone says it's okay to lower your standards. Most people who have a tv will admit it in a guilty way. No one is saying it is completely 'pure' or nothing wrong with it.
"Yes, kicking people out of shul and out of school That IS the lubavitch way!" NO IT IS NOT. Really. Whatever happened to veahavta lereiacha kamocha, help a fellow Jew not kick him out when you feel he is 'bad'.
I really think you are wrong and you are going about this the wrong way.
Stop for a second and imagine these very same people you are 'accusing' not as Lubavitchers, but as members of a chabad house, maybe even baalei teshuva or people who are on their way to becoming frum. Now would you talk about them with the same distaste and negativity with which you choose to put down your fellow Jews?
What is your only issue here? The fact that they call themselves Lubavitch, or the fact that they don't ACT Lubavitch?
You seem to be saying, leave from our midst, we don't want you here. Why not instead say, maybe you need help being a better Jew? Maybe you want to learn shulchan aruch together, or sefer minhagim? Maybe you simply don't know that what you are doing is wrong.
I think the stance you are taking is completely ANTI- Lubavitch.
Im not even going to bother giving a detailed response. It is unfortunate that you have been brainwashed into being a member of the feel good lubavitch movement. Viahavta lirayacha kamocha does not mean to corrupt yourself. Lubavitch is supposed to be the most extreme. Chabad advocates individual action as opposed to chagas which just relies on the Rebbe.
Sadly, this has been lost on you. The true lubavitch is Judiasim on the highest level of the highest form. Pure and uncorrupted.
The argument you try bringing about baalei teshva is neither here nor there. Helping them become frum doesnt mean stooping to the level of observance they hold themselves at now. We dont condone their driving to shul on shabbos. We wont send our children to the same hebrew school that may be good enough for them. Because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. Period.
(Re. kicking a kid out of school "for his parents mistakes" yes! Should other children be corrupted, lives literally ruined because this childs parents are chabad lite? NO! The kid should originally be put in a school of kids being raised in similar sort of homes with similar standards and hashkafos. A kid like that does NOT belong in a main stream lubavitch school! No way to spin it! It is because of liberal minded feel good people like you, who base their feelings of what lubavitch should be based simply on that, THEIR OWN FEELINGS instead of what the rabbiem felt lubavitch should be, who have brought and continue to bring the issue of chabad lite upon Lubavitch at large! it is ideals like yours that cause people like you to make statements that "there are no chassdim left today!)
"It is because of liberal minded feel good people like you, who base their feelings of what lubavitch should be based simply on that, THEIR OWN FEELINGS instead of what the rabbiem felt lubavitch should be, who have brought and continue to bring the issue of chabad lite upon Lubavitch at large! it is ideals like yours that cause people like you to make statements that "there are no chassdim left today!"
Haha. You make me laugh.
The difference between you and me is, I can respect your response and your placement in an argument even if I don't agree with it. While you on the other hand, not only do you demean my argument, you demean ME. Which I find distasteful at best, and immature at worst.
My parents are baalei teshuva, and had they not become frum I would be a lovely modern orthodox or possibly non religious girl, maybe driving to shul on shabbos or possibly married to a non Jew like some of my relatives with absolutely no feeling towards Judaism at all.
So bring all the arguments you want, make whatever false statements you want, "It is unfortunate that you have been brainwashed into being a member of the feel good lubavitch movement.", assumptions, insults, etc.
But don't you DARE go anywhere near my connection to the Rebbe, or my status as a 'Lubavitcher'. That is none of your business. None at all.
I refuse to have a 'discussion' with such a close-minded person as yourself, who refuses to consider another's point of view, and more so, makes a mockery out of it.
Laugh all you want! The questionis what will YOU have to pass on to your children. Think about that. Will you be raising them hypocritically, telling them that they have a TV at home but not to talk about it in school?
I feel no need to go further. You can disagree with my opinion in this matter all you want, but what you are saying is simply based on feelings. Your own feelings. Feelings that come due to either a lack of knowledge, attempts as self justification, or both. What I am saying is what the rebbe felt on the matter. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either delusional, ignorant, or doesnt to make either you or themselves feel bad.
Tv at home? You think I'd have a tv in my house? Oh my dear professor, I dare say you don't know me at all. (Said with a British accent.)
"but what you are saying is simply based on feelings" And you? What is your arguments based on? Did the Rebbe tell you all this in a vision?
"What I am saying is what the rebbe felt on the matter." I'm sure you know exactly what the Rebbe felt and thought. (Oh I know you will challenge that with a 'yes it's all in the books he wrote'. Sure but then again I wouldn't trust you on that.)
The difference between you and I is, what I believe and the way I lead my life is personal and I see no need to turn it into a heated discussion. You, I think you get all worked up over this. Why? Because you are not confident enough in your own life you need to study someone else's? Do you worry that these 'people' will corrupt your children? If your children were strong enough, if YOU were man enough, you'd turn it around and try to help them instead of shun them.
Well this has been a great discussion :) (Virtual handshake.)
No. but the rebbe did tell us what his views in the matter are. They can all be found in lekuteir sichos, toras menachem, etc.
There is still no need to put your kids through the nisayon, or to be more precise, you arent ALLOWED to put your kids through it. Also, most of these people do not want to be 'helped'. I have no issue if they lead their lives the way they want to. However, they should not daven in our shuls nor send their kids to our schools. Simple as that.
"Our shuls'? It's funny how you keep saying us and them, like there's a split, like a neighborhood fight. Petty. You really think you are better than 'them'? You admitted yourself that you may not consider yourself to be a chossid. But you consider yourself to be a true Lubavitcher? Aren't they one and the same?
And on putting your kids through the 'nisayon' as you put it, this is akin to going on shlichus. Every shliach takes the risk that their children will be adversely affected 'out there' through the influence of other children and foreign ways. So the solution is to not go on shlichus? No. As the Rebbe said, he will protect the children.
Again you refer to these 'people' as foreigners. They move among our midst, they are just like you and me, we are all one and the same. Even if the outside looks different. We are all Jews.
You think I say this out of ignorance, naivety, a desire to make myself feel better. That is not true. I simply attempt to believe in the inherent good in every person. While you on the other hands try to make it out like 'they' are a poison to be gotten rid of.
"However, they should not daven in our shuls nor send their kids to our schools. Simple as that." Nothing is ever simple.
The way you are misusing quotes is literally driving me insane. The rebbe said that the shluchims kid are on his shoulders. Does that mean however that they should be sent to public school? A parent must do what they can to protect their children from the corruption which those 'foreigners' as you so aptly put it present. That means fighting to make sure foreign children do not attend our schools. yes, OUR, because as i said, i am a project in the making. I strive to one day be able to say to myself that i am somewhat comfortable telling the world that i am someone who represents the Rebbe. And when that day comes, i want a system that will have not been destroyed by liberal minded idiots.
Remember, there is more than one right in this world. Many ways to see things. I am not wrong and you are not right simply because we view things differently.
I don't believe I'm wrong. I believe we agree about certain things, it is just the way you FEEL about it that I am having trouble with. Seemingly, you have no emotions whatsoever.
To rid our communities of foreign elements. Even though it will upset many people; people who you may have grown u with and lived with all your life. But what is right is right.
Quite frankly, i dont care who i sound like. It is something which ust be done. Think bacl to last weeks parsha, we learned it three whole times. Shevet levi went and killed their siblings for the Chayt HaEgel. Im not saying to kill tehse people, but just let them know that they are not welcome in our shuls and schools to corrupt what we hold dear. They can start their own places.
Il bring u an example, here in LA there was a huge uproar because the girls school asked that when mothers come to school they should make sure to dress tzniusdik. The Lite crowd flipped out. More level headed people flipped out at them; idiots! If they want their kids and wives to dress a certain way, send them to a school that goes by those standards! Dont dare to come to our schools and try lowering our standards! If they want to send their children to our schools, they have to hole by our schools levels. Simple as that!
Not to help your cause, but Bais Rivkah tried something where they refused to let mothers pick up their children from school unless they were dressed tzniusly. They made them go home and change.
Call it whatever you want but I think it's nuts.
So is throwing a quarter at a girl who isn't dressed properly and insinuating that she is a whore.
There is 'taking a stand' and then there is just plain callous.
I agree with that! It is one thing for a parent to tell a child "that person isnt frum, isnt lubavitch, isnt jewish and therefore they dress like that". It is a lot harder for a parent to explain to their child that the mother of their classmate, who looks just like them, calls themselves by the same name as them is doing something wrong by not dressing like a bas melech.
Sometimes stands must be taken even if they are callous. Just like the precedent set by shevet levi or Pinchas Ben Yair, sometimes a stand which is not popular or even hurtful to some must be taken,. Because it is to defend what is right and proper.
My take on it is, how can a child learn about tznius at school and then see her own mother dressed contrary to what she was taught? They are sending her conflicting information.
HOWEVER, it is not the child's fault, it is the fault of the parents. And do not punish a child for their parents' mistakes.
Also, you are being very cold-hearted about the whole thing.
BUT it also effects the other children and is therefore too bad on that "poor child". Her or his parents chose the way they want to live and their child may just have to suffer as a result of them. I may be cold hearted, but that is the approach that has to be taken when other childrens spiritual lives at at stake.
Anyhow, I am going to drop out of this conversation. Its been lovely proving you wrong. Have a good night.
Yes. And when moshiach comes he will purify their corrupted little minds and they will once again be allowed to socialize with the rest of the community. Until then....
@ FBM. The Rebbe was never for lowering our standards to be able to be mekarev othres. Instead of looking at it like pushing them away, look at it as not letting them in to begin with.
I gotta say, i was actually quite unimpressed with COL for posting that...
ReplyDeleteA) So did shmais, and they are the 'clean' site. http://www.shmais.com/chabad-news/latest/item/oprah-winfrey-visits-ny-chasidic-families-in-new-series
ReplyDeleteB) It pertains to Lubavitchers, and col brings us Lubavitch News:
"Oprah's Next Chapter" which premieres in January 2012 will be giving a glimpse into the daily life of chassidic Jews and how their intense spiritual devotion informs and strengthens their dealings with the outside world.
C) It's good publicity, and I think she's a great person.
I can understand why you would think Col should not be posting certain stuff but I see nothing in this article as negative or un-newsworthy.
So why do you say that?
First off, it is not a lubavitch news site. None of the sites are. They express their own views and happen to focus on or be members of the lubavitch community. It is rather sad that people think or feel that they are official lubavitch organs, as the views they express and stories they publish often times are not fitting for the standard that an official lubavitch organ would and must hold itself to. This story is an example of that. Do you think a lubvitch news paper that would have been handed in to the Rebbe for review before being published would have included the story? I dont.
ReplyDeleteCol= Chabad online. Really? Not Lubavitch? Next.
ReplyDeleteOrgan? What is that supposed to mean?
I was attempting to rent a car, and just because I said I'm a member of 'Chabad' (which they amusingly pronounced 'Chi-bad') I get special privileges. What if anyone else said they were Chabad just to get the same deal? What makes anyone Chabad? Cuz they grew up that way?
I don't think you are talking about just a website here. I think by pointing out what you think they did wrong you are avoiding the real deeper problem.
I can agree with what you are saying, that perhaps the Rebbe would not approve. But on that topic:
A) who are you to say what the Rebbe would and would not approve and
B: do YOU live your life exactly as a chossid should? Do you behave the way a 'Lubavitch organ' should behave ALWAYS in EVERYTHING you do? Cuz I really doubt that.
Who are you to judge? I'm sure the Rebbe does not need you advocating for him.
What makes COL lubavitch? That the editor is lubavitch? So are the opnions i express on my blog the official stance of lubavitch as well? I am also a lubavitcher?
ReplyDeleteorgan
noun ( NEWSPAPER ) /ˈɔː.gən//ˈɔːr-/
Definition
the organ of sth formal
a newspaper or broadcasting station produced by a particular organization and giving only the opinions of that organization
The newspaper Pravda was the official organ of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/organ_3)
Do you really think that someone is chabad because thats what they call themselves? Naive. Im not even going to bother responding. Ha. The Rebbe outlines quite clearly what a lubavitcher is. And please dont give me some cliche answer that if someone met the rebbe they are lubavitch or the rebbe loved all jews. The rebbe met non jews and apikorsim as well. I do not see anyone classifying them as lubavitch.
This is actually a topic that has to be brought up and cant constantly be swept under the carpet saying "the rebbe doesnt need you to defend him". Unfortunately, lubavitch today has taken on a funny meaning. People who lead their lives in a fashion that the rebbe was completely opposed to consider themselves lubavitch. Many of the so called "chabad lite" barely look frum, but they consider themselves lubavitch. What gives them that status? That their parents were lubavitchers? There is the famous story of the Frierdiker Rebbe when the KGB agent Lulav offered to carry his bags saying the his grandfather had been a chassid and carried the Rebbe Maharash's bags, so he would do the same. The Rebbe answered him the his grandfather had been a chassid, he wasnt.
Being chassid isnt hereditary. It is not inherited. As the famous hayom yom says the rabbiem wanted chassidim who worked to become chassidim, not chassidim who just were. In other words the person needs his own merit. Yes, I am cutting out half of lubavitch, i am maybe even cutting out myself, but that does not change the fact. Lubavitch is an exclusive club where one has to pay an extremely high membership fee. It is not name which one can just use cheaply.
"i am maybe even cutting out myself,"- Good point.
ReplyDelete"the rebbe doesnt need you to defend him". This is also true.
You make good points. However, a prince is born a prince and is a prince no matter how he acts, and no one can take that away from him.
And according to my mother, the Rebbe hand-picked his Chassidim.
You are correct in saying that just because you call yourself one doesn't mean you are. In addition, yes it takes work.
But again, who are YOU to say who qualifies and who does not? You are no one.
"the rebbe doesnt need you to defend him". Please quote in context. That argument is beyond idiotic. A chassid does not care to see his rebbe dragged into the shmutz. The Rebbes honor means more to a chossid than his own. How would you react to someone trashing your father? I would go into examples, but think to the extreme. You would not respond lightly, and spare nothing at both discrediting the person who made made the statement or committed the act, responding to the actual charges that were laid.
ReplyDelete"And according to my mother, the Rebbe hand-picked his Chassidim". Snicker. Great source. It goes a bit further back than your mother. On the actual issue, read what you said, "the Rebbe hand picked his CHASSIDIM"!!! Again, CHASSIDIM!! Not the that guy who.... (ok, im not going to start cursing out specific profiles, but im sure you have a basic idea...). Is he a chassid? No!! What makes him a chassid! The rebbe hand picked his chassidim. Not the guy who just calls himself one but does nothing to be one. is the guy who wears military fatigues a special forces soldier? Of course not! The absurdity of that idea os mind boggling.
I can simply say what the rebbe says being a chassid means. There is an amazing book called "Der Rebbes Kinder" (not to be confused with Der Rebbe Redt Tzo Kinder) which outlines exactly what being a chassid would mean. I suggest you - and everyone else for that matter - read that book.
How bout you read the book and get back to me.
ReplyDeleteAnd for that matter, when you become a chossid, get back to me too.
So you are defending in the Rebbe's name and saying that people who call themselves chassidim are in fact not.
Now 2 things: firstly, not many people call themselves 'chassidim'. You mostly here lubavitch. Which we know is like a 'club'. There's a difference between being a chossid and being a lubavitcher.
2nd, what if you had a step-brother and you told the kid your father wasn't his father. What if your father considered him to be a son? Who are you to define another person's relationship with the Rebbe?
Jews are Jews. Correct? Every Jew has a pintele yid and no matter how far he strays he will always be a Jew and Hashem will always be his father.
So why is it any different with the Rebbe? We call our Rebbe tatte too. Who are you to say who are the Rebbe's kinder and who aren't?
Same way a parent says, don't tattle on another child because it is not your place to discipline. You may think you are defending the Rebbe's 'honor' when in fact you may be tearing a child away from his father with your insensitive words.
The only person whom you can judge as a chossid or not a chossid is yourself. And according to your argument, who are you to call yourself a chossid?
In fact, at the rate you are going, I'll bet there is not one true chossid out there today.
How bout that.
You can try spinning it any way you want, throwing nice feel good lines about step children etc. At the end of the day the fact remains. There is no use denying it. Many Lubavitchers today are by no means lubavicth. They are friends of lubavicth, lubavitch affiliated (and trying to play the "you mostly here (sic) lubavitch" card is just childish. Really? Is that the excuse for it?) but not lubavitch.
ReplyDeleteI think it is quite sad that you feel there arent any lubavitchers left today. It says something about who you have had as role models, teachers and friends. There are hundreds if not thousands of true chassidim. Real lubavitchers. Both the senior ones, as well as the young crop of chassidim which we have in our yeshivas. Lubavitch lives on.
Pull the WHAT card?
ReplyDeleteA) I don't think you are qualified in this area.
B) that was sarcastic mockery out of what you were saying. The way you make it sound is that Lubavitch is a group of 2 altere chassidim.
Now a moment of honesty: do you consider yourself lubavitch? A chossid? Do YOU act the way a chossid should?
I am merely asking a relevent question to the discussion.
Because again, what are your qualifications in this discussion?
You questions are skirting the issue. The fact still stands regardless of my qualifications. It doesnt take a doctor to realize that a guy is bleeding. i dont have to be some eltere chassid to realize and say there is an issue. That is the fact. Period. You can try attributing niceties to it, use metaphors and parables, but at the end of the day the fact still satnds. They are not lubavitch and there is nothing lubavitch about them!
ReplyDeleteI like niceties. I'm a nice person. Not cold and calculating like you.
ReplyDeleteAnd who exactly are 'they'? You wanna to start pointing fingers? Naming names? When 'they' show up in 770 or at the kinnus will you bar them access because you have judged and found lacking?
It's interesting how you think you are in a position to judge.
And you have dodged my question. Again.
Are YOU a chossid?
They also help one just completely skirt an issue trying to bury it and make it all feel good.
ReplyDeleteI think it is fairly obvious what group of people i am referring to. The main idea is to get them to recognize themselves that they arent lubavitch, outward appearances can be deceiving.
I already addressed whether or not I am in a place to judge. Regarding me being a chossid; I consider myself someone who tries hard to follow the Rebbes directives. I am a chossid in progress. I affiliate myself with chabad, but no, i do not feel that i can call myself a true chassid based on where I know I am in my life.
Issue? What issue?
ReplyDeleteI think you are wrong about that. There's nothing wrong with 'feeling good'. And just because one does not choose to argue an issue to death does not mean that they don't acknowledge and realize that there may be a problem.
" i do not feel that i can call myself a true chassid based on where I know I am in my life."
That is good, because I wouldn't want the Rebbe to be embarrassed of you.
For a person who likes to point out a lot of 'issues', you sure are short on solutions.
Trying to tell yourself there is no issue by masking it with parables accomplishes nothing. You may bury it and feel good for the moment but the issue remains. It has nothing to do with arguing to the death, throughout this conversation you have tried skirting the issue, saying it doesnt exist by using niceties. It was an attempt at burying your head in the sand, not avoiding an argument (especially as they were used in a way which aimed at prolonging this exchange of ideas).
ReplyDeleteThere is a very simple solution, shape up or ship out. They can keep a picture of the rebbe on your wall, doesnt bother me. Daven nushach ari, also fine. Things i have an issue with is the sending of their children to schools which attempt to educate chassidim. A child which has a TV in their home because their parent is a member of the Lite community which then comes to school and educates other children on the nonsense that they watched should be thrown out of school. There should be schools for similarly corrupted children. Here in LA the Cheder Of Los Angeles (the chasseedishe school)makes parents sign a letter that if the school finds out that they have a TV in their house the child will be kicked out of school. Toras emes, the yeshivishe school has a rule no TV on school nights and the schools official stance is tv's are wrong. Only the lubavitch school doesnt have such a policy. WHY NOT? Our Rebbe spared no words expressing his view on television! We should have the same policy! People seem to feel that because lubavitch is all loving and accepting we should lower our standards. It doesnt work that way! the rebbe made it quite clear about what he thought about that opinion.
In summation, members of the Chabad Lite community can feel free to call themselves Chabad Lite - by tat very name, as well as to conduct themselves by whichever chabad practices they deem fit. However, anything which influences the LUBAVITCH community at large should not be allowed and that should be enforced. Yes, kicking people out of shul and out of school That IS the lubavitch way! Lubavitchers are Kanoim! Anyone who tells you otherwise is mistaken. Keeping our community al taharas hakodesh is something which has to be fought for, even at the risk of alienating people. When the rebbe felt that there was an issue that had to be addressed he addressed it without regard for what the reaction might be. The lubavitch communities worldwide mst do the same....
I am not burying my head in the sand and I have no problem admitting that there is an issue, but it is not MY issue and therefore I see no need to get all worked up about it like you are.
ReplyDelete"Things i have an issue with is the sending of their children to schools which attempt to educate chassidim." WHY are you so bothered by what other people do?
"A child which has a TV in their home because their parent is a member of the Lite community which then comes to school and educates other children on the nonsense that they watched should be thrown out of school."- THROWN OUT OF SCHOOL? Really? A child should be punished for his parents mistakes? I don't think so.
"There should be schools for similarly corrupted children."- Corrupted? So now a child who watches TV is corrupted? What about a boy who talks to girls? That makes him practically a kofer.
"People seem to feel that because lubavitch is all loving and accepting we should lower our standards. It doesnt work that way! the rebbe made it quite clear about what he thought about that opinion."- Which people are you referring to? I don't think anyone says it's okay to lower your standards. Most people who have a tv will admit it in a guilty way. No one is saying it is completely 'pure' or nothing wrong with it.
"Yes, kicking people out of shul and out of school That IS the lubavitch way!" NO IT IS NOT. Really. Whatever happened to veahavta lereiacha kamocha, help a fellow Jew not kick him out when you feel he is 'bad'.
I really think you are wrong and you are going about this the wrong way.
Stop for a second and imagine these very same people you are 'accusing' not as Lubavitchers, but as members of a chabad house, maybe even baalei teshuva or people who are on their way to becoming frum. Now would you talk about them with the same distaste and negativity with which you choose to put down your fellow Jews?
What is your only issue here? The fact that they call themselves Lubavitch, or the fact that they don't ACT Lubavitch?
You seem to be saying, leave from our midst, we don't want you here. Why not instead say, maybe you need help being a better Jew? Maybe you want to learn shulchan aruch together, or sefer minhagim? Maybe you simply don't know that what you are doing is wrong.
I think the stance you are taking is completely ANTI- Lubavitch.
And I think you are too hot-headed to admit that.
Im not even going to bother giving a detailed response. It is unfortunate that you have been brainwashed into being a member of the feel good lubavitch movement. Viahavta lirayacha kamocha does not mean to corrupt yourself. Lubavitch is supposed to be the most extreme. Chabad advocates individual action as opposed to chagas which just relies on the Rebbe.
ReplyDeleteSadly, this has been lost on you. The true lubavitch is Judiasim on the highest level of the highest form. Pure and uncorrupted.
The argument you try bringing about baalei teshva is neither here nor there. Helping them become frum doesnt mean stooping to the level of observance they hold themselves at now. We dont condone their driving to shul on shabbos. We wont send our children to the same hebrew school that may be good enough for them. Because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. Period.
(Re. kicking a kid out of school "for his parents mistakes" yes! Should other children be corrupted, lives literally ruined because this childs parents are chabad lite? NO! The kid should originally be put in a school of kids being raised in similar sort of homes with similar standards and hashkafos. A kid like that does NOT belong in a main stream lubavitch school! No way to spin it! It is because of liberal minded feel good people like you, who base their feelings of what lubavitch should be based simply on that, THEIR OWN FEELINGS instead of what the rabbiem felt lubavitch should be, who have brought and continue to bring the issue of chabad lite upon Lubavitch at large! it is ideals like yours that cause people like you to make statements that "there are no chassdim left today!)
"It is because of liberal minded feel good people like you, who base their feelings of what lubavitch should be based simply on that, THEIR OWN FEELINGS instead of what the rabbiem felt lubavitch should be, who have brought and continue to bring the issue of chabad lite upon Lubavitch at large! it is ideals like yours that cause people like you to make statements that "there are no chassdim left today!"
ReplyDeleteHaha. You make me laugh.
The difference between you and me is, I can respect your response and your placement in an argument even if I don't agree with it. While you on the other hand, not only do you demean my argument, you demean ME. Which I find distasteful at best, and immature at worst.
My parents are baalei teshuva, and had they not become frum I would be a lovely modern orthodox or possibly non religious girl, maybe driving to shul on shabbos or possibly married to a non Jew like some of my relatives with absolutely no feeling towards Judaism at all.
So bring all the arguments you want, make whatever false statements you want, "It is unfortunate that you have been brainwashed into being a member of the feel good lubavitch movement.", assumptions, insults, etc.
But don't you DARE go anywhere near my connection to the Rebbe, or my status as a 'Lubavitcher'. That is none of your business. None at all.
I refuse to have a 'discussion' with such a close-minded person as yourself, who refuses to consider another's point of view, and more so, makes a mockery out of it.
Laugh all you want! The questionis what will YOU have to pass on to your children. Think about that. Will you be raising them hypocritically, telling them that they have a TV at home but not to talk about it in school?
ReplyDeleteI feel no need to go further. You can disagree with my opinion in this matter all you want, but what you are saying is simply based on feelings. Your own feelings. Feelings that come due to either a lack of knowledge, attempts as self justification, or both. What I am saying is what the rebbe felt on the matter. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either delusional, ignorant, or doesnt to make either you or themselves feel bad.
Tv at home? You think I'd have a tv in my house? Oh my dear professor, I dare say you don't know me at all. (Said with a British accent.)
ReplyDelete"but what you are saying is simply based on feelings" And you? What is your arguments based on? Did the Rebbe tell you all this in a vision?
"What I am saying is what the rebbe felt on the matter." I'm sure you know exactly what the Rebbe felt and thought. (Oh I know you will challenge that with a 'yes it's all in the books he wrote'. Sure but then again I wouldn't trust you on that.)
The difference between you and I is, what I believe and the way I lead my life is personal and I see no need to turn it into a heated discussion. You, I think you get all worked up over this. Why? Because you are not confident enough in your own life you need to study someone else's? Do you worry that these 'people' will corrupt your children? If your children were strong enough, if YOU were man enough, you'd turn it around and try to help them instead of shun them.
Well this has been a great discussion :) (Virtual handshake.)
Oh and I will laugh, cuz laughter is a great cure for any ailment. You should try it instead of being so serious all the time.
ReplyDeleteIt was hypothetical.
ReplyDeleteNo. but the rebbe did tell us what his views in the matter are. They can all be found in lekuteir sichos, toras menachem, etc.
There is still no need to put your kids through the nisayon, or to be more precise, you arent ALLOWED to put your kids through it. Also, most of these people do not want to be 'helped'. I have no issue if they lead their lives the way they want to. However, they should not daven in our shuls nor send their kids to our schools. Simple as that.
"Our shuls'? It's funny how you keep saying us and them, like there's a split, like a neighborhood fight. Petty. You really think you are better than 'them'? You admitted yourself that you may not consider yourself to be a chossid. But you consider yourself to be a true Lubavitcher? Aren't they one and the same?
ReplyDeleteAnd on putting your kids through the 'nisayon' as you put it, this is akin to going on shlichus. Every shliach takes the risk that their children will be adversely affected 'out there' through the influence of other children and foreign ways. So the solution is to not go on shlichus? No. As the Rebbe said, he will protect the children.
Again you refer to these 'people' as foreigners. They move among our midst, they are just like you and me, we are all one and the same. Even if the outside looks different. We are all Jews.
You think I say this out of ignorance, naivety, a desire to make myself feel better. That is not true. I simply attempt to believe in the inherent good in every person. While you on the other hands try to make it out like 'they' are a poison to be gotten rid of.
"However, they should not daven in our shuls nor send their kids to our schools. Simple as that." Nothing is ever simple.
The way you are misusing quotes is literally driving me insane. The rebbe said that the shluchims kid are on his shoulders. Does that mean however that they should be sent to public school? A parent must do what they can to protect their children from the corruption which those 'foreigners' as you so aptly put it present. That means fighting to make sure foreign children do not attend our schools. yes, OUR, because as i said, i am a project in the making. I strive to one day be able to say to myself that i am somewhat comfortable telling the world that i am someone who represents the Rebbe. And when that day comes, i want a system that will have not been destroyed by liberal minded idiots.
ReplyDeleteNot everyone else, in this case just the people who I have been referring to who hold an obviously wrong opinion.
ReplyDeleteIn this case it is simply facing reality.
ReplyDeleteWHOSE reality? It is the reality as YOU see it.
ReplyDeleteRemember, there is more than one right in this world. Many ways to see things. I am not wrong and you are not right simply because we view things differently.
No. This is a reality the way anyone who cares to look objectively sees it. Its a reality that the rebbe saw. So here, yes, you are wrong!
ReplyDeleteYou believe yourself to be objective? Try again.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe I'm wrong. I believe we agree about certain things, it is just the way you FEEL about it that I am having trouble with. Seemingly, you have no emotions whatsoever.
I am being fully objective here. Something which I cant often claim to do.
ReplyDeleteEmotions are not allowed to play a role in decisions such as these. They cloud the persons view, rendering them unable to think clearly.
Define what exactly these 'decisions' are of which you speak.
ReplyDeleteTo rid our communities of foreign elements. Even though it will upset many people; people who you may have grown u with and lived with all your life. But what is right is right.
ReplyDeleteQuite frankly, i dont care who i sound like. It is something which ust be done. Think bacl to last weeks parsha, we learned it three whole times. Shevet levi went and killed their siblings for the Chayt HaEgel. Im not saying to kill tehse people, but just let them know that they are not welcome in our shuls and schools to corrupt what we hold dear. They can start their own places.
ReplyDeleteIl bring u an example, here in LA there was a huge uproar because the girls school asked that when mothers come to school they should make sure to dress tzniusdik. The Lite crowd flipped out. More level headed people flipped out at them; idiots! If they want their kids and wives to dress a certain way, send them to a school that goes by those standards! Dont dare to come to our schools and try lowering our standards! If they want to send their children to our schools, they have to hole by our schools levels. Simple as that!
Not to help your cause, but Bais Rivkah tried something where they refused to let mothers pick up their children from school unless they were dressed tzniusly. They made them go home and change.
ReplyDeleteCall it whatever you want but I think it's nuts.
So is throwing a quarter at a girl who isn't dressed properly and insinuating that she is a whore.
There is 'taking a stand' and then there is just plain callous.
I agree with that! It is one thing for a parent to tell a child "that person isnt frum, isnt lubavitch, isnt jewish and therefore they dress like that". It is a lot harder for a parent to explain to their child that the mother of their classmate, who looks just like them, calls themselves by the same name as them is doing something wrong by not dressing like a bas melech.
ReplyDeleteSometimes stands must be taken even if they are callous. Just like the precedent set by shevet levi or Pinchas Ben Yair, sometimes a stand which is not popular or even hurtful to some must be taken,. Because it is to defend what is right and proper.
My take on it is, how can a child learn about tznius at school and then see her own mother dressed contrary to what she was taught? They are sending her conflicting information.
ReplyDeleteHOWEVER, it is not the child's fault, it is the fault of the parents. And do not punish a child for their parents' mistakes.
Also, you are being very cold-hearted about the whole thing.
BUT it also effects the other children and is therefore too bad on that "poor child". Her or his parents chose the way they want to live and their child may just have to suffer as a result of them. I may be cold hearted, but that is the approach that has to be taken when other childrens spiritual lives at at stake.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, I am going to drop out of this conversation. Its been lovely proving you wrong. Have a good night.
:) Haha in your dreams.
ReplyDeleteAlso get back to me in 30 years. Let me know what your kids think of you.
My kids will God willing be living together with moshiach and will therefore not face such challenges.
ReplyDeleteAmen.
ReplyDeleteBut the funny thing is, so will all those other kids. The ones you are trying to push away.
And if Moshiach comes today G-d willing, this discussion is moot.
Yes. And when moshiach comes he will purify their corrupted little minds and they will once again be allowed to socialize with the rest of the community. Until then....
ReplyDeletelol. G-d I hope Moshiach doesn't hear you talking that way, he'd probably leave you behind.
ReplyDeleteCHAS V'SHALOM PUSHING ANYONE AWAY. UCH UN VEI.
ReplyDelete@ FBM. The Rebbe was never for lowering our standards to be able to be mekarev othres. Instead of looking at it like pushing them away, look at it as not letting them in to begin with.
ReplyDelete